1. #1
    Violence's Avatar Member
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    Premeditation and Rush.

    Hey everyone, Ive been using a rush deck to PvP lately and been enjoying it so far but there's one thing id like to know from some experienced Rangers out there regarding Premeditation on a rush deck, personally i never used it but i am tempted to do so, the only problem for me is the HP toll it inflicts sending out wolfs/DB's/Frenzy adding a premeditation would mean less then half HP before i even get hit considering i only have 41 HP at the moment.
    I use x2 Howlers x2 Fenris x1 DB x1 Frenzy, most of the times i have to use the 2 Fenris so the toll is pretty high for me any suggestions, tweaks maybe?

    So my question is do high tier rangers utilize premeditation often in 1v1, is it worth it to sacrifice -5HP for it?

    Also i do realize its abit situacional depending on what moment the cards reaches you're hand but nevertheless what do you think?


    Regards Shyriu and thank you in advance.
    Last edited by Violence; 12-27-2013 at 01:34 PM.
    Shyriu - Windycliff

  2. #2
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Finally an intelligent thread. +1

    I had been meaning to make a post about the pros and cons of this very same topic. Kudos

    Here is how I feel about it. (With experience in using it myself for the very same purpose in the past)
    Premeditation lets you "see" 2 cards more than your opponent in a match. Drawing in any card game is a huge advantage ESPECIALLY if your opponent cannot do the same. Obviously premeditation is a very strong card for that fact. Let's talk a bit more about this

    Rush is 15 cards. No more for consistency sake. We would play even less in rush if we still could but that rule was changed to a 15 minimum deck size awhile back. Oh well

    If you play more than 15 cards in a rush deck; you have to play premeditation since draw in this game essentially equates to having "less cards in your deck size"
    For every 2 card MORE than 15 in a rush deck, 1 has to be premeditation to make up for the extra card you play since premeditation means "2 less cards" because you "see" 2 more cards with it. (Plus it takes up a spot in of itself in a deck) To make up for the lost consistency

    You COULD always play 1 premeditation in the core 15 for even GREATER consistency if you felt like it though.

    The problems with Premeditation: 5 Life and timing

    As a ranger we are already very happy-go-lucky careless with our life total but my policy has always been this: You do not need all of your life to win a game. You only need 1 life to not lose the game.
    So life? No problem really. Just make sure to not leave yourself open to having the game stolen from you by a Mifzuna/alice/centaur marksman/Lucius/Ark sniper/etc.

    You get the point. Good pvp mechanics will help offset the pain in life total

    Problem 2 is timing. <----- This is the make or break section where folks divide between the cards' usefulness

    Premeditation is bad if you see it near the end of the match, as it does nothing for you by then. This much is obvious. Though a rush deck should finish the game one way or the other before the deck reaches 0 anyways. So.... point 1 in favour of premeditation here

    Premeditation doesnt go quite as well if you are going 2nd in a game; (Much like Sylvi Ranger. But I'll talk about that in another thread)
    due to the cards you draw not going off of cooldown until the end of the turn so you need that extra turn to really get the advantage of those cards.
    It IS great when you are ahead or going first in a match though
    (pretty much seals the game for you unless you totally whiff the game to a Sanctuary or inspire + DS or something)

    What do we take from this?

    Premeditation is mechanically too slow if you are behind or going 2nd in a match because the cards you draw do not start going off of cooldown until the end of the turn and premeditation doesn't offer you anything straight up as you play it.

    Premeditation is very strong and pretty much seals the game for you when you have the 1st play OR if you already have the lead on field position
    (AKA: You are already winning)

    Of course, your opponent could always whiff the game off of a bad draw themselves and the "playing 2nd" disadvantage won't matter so much

    So there are, like you pointed out, specific situations and small uncontrollable variables that play a part in the playability of premeditation either for or against you. It is good to be aware of them though.


    I played 17 cards and 2 premeditation with 3 Sylvi rangers in the 1st preseason pvp on Ancient Den and came out champion.
    Let that success be both validity of my input and some evidential proof of premeditation and its playability in a competitive environment

    Though in post season tournaments; it IS best 2 of 3, and are thus likely to play 2 games on "1st play" each match, which statistically swung the deck to greater favour ^^ (Smart cookie is smart)

    Knowing both sides of the premeditation coin will help you ultimately decide for or against it.
    Good luck
    Last edited by HalfbloodQueen; 12-27-2013 at 02:18 PM.

  3. #3
    Violence's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Oh many thanks for the quick reply and the insightfull post, I can see that premeditation is basicly a 2 edged blade, essentially due to the fact that it can come in any time during the match.

    Ultimatly i can clearly see it has a great advantage due to the fact that you can forsee you're upcoming cards on the other hand you don't have a lower CD on them meaning you can only play them 1-2 turns before using it so like you pointed out so well its a downside, but here's the thing for me personally i don't use the standard 15-17 rush deck card due to its frailty and instability (and not nearly enough legendary cards to make up for it), since it's rather expensive to get all necessary cards to create an almost flawless lineup of cards I went to for a more balanced approach on the rush side using a 25 deck card with some units that can block or delay a rush e.g. Mynx/Zeeva/Ofegur, I apologize for not mentioning this beforehand.

    But i have to admit you made a very solid argument about premeditation and tempted me even more to start using it, it is true you only need 1 life to win the match but the randomness of people's critical hits and blocks makes me wonder if i should attempt a 15-17 card deck and hope for the best or make some room in my "vast rush deck" for premeditation and pray for it on the first 2 rounds heh.

    And again thank you for such detailed information about the matter ^.^.
    Shyriu - Windycliff

  4. #4
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    My current 15 card pvp isn't EXACTLY rush as we have described it either but more like your balanced 25 you described. But still a 15.

    It's more like a "good stuff" deck where I play the BEST stats to CD ratio on my units. It is just 15 to maximize consistency and efficiency

    I'll even post the list that I took to last post-season to help you out/give ideas

    Post season:

    2x Premeditation
    3x Deadly blow
    2x True shot
    3x Sylvi Ranger
    3x Werewolf Howler
    1x Fenris the Butcher
    1x Mifzuna the wind
    1x Alice, king's emissary
    1x Ancient Chimera

    I was ready to swap out Chimera for Aphrodena/Nadja the viper against Mage/Priest specifically in between rounds

    Enjoy ^^
    Last edited by HalfbloodQueen; 12-27-2013 at 02:58 PM.

  5. #5
    Violence's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Oh Ancient Chimera? I didn't saw that one coming don't even have it i think lol, no Lucius or Marksman? Rather diferent deck then i imagined frankly heh, currently skill wise since alot of people are using Elven guard with nimble im using x1 Double stab to be able to hit them x2 True shots x1 DB x1 Frenzy, and x2 Pegasi for quick response in the next lane if a vigilance is up or just to harass and force them to use skills on the lower cards.

    While the deck you posted can be very effective consistent and straight forward i dislike the fact of having very few units to counter properly but i did get the picture and thanks for the sneak peak :P

    Also im curious why the Chimera in this deck and not let's say a lucius swift or even an Ark Sniper to harass or support?
    And why x2 Premeditation with such a small deck its a very ballsy deck lol if you get preme in the first turns you get out most of your arsenal but risking a counter, nontheless interesting ^^
    Shyriu - Windycliff

  6. #6
    r4zZ's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Seems you're playing other ways on your server. On Kings Mausoleum and the merged servers, this low card deck couldnt stand against the high ranked players. Especially not against swamp mages. But I guess it was only for post-season finals.

    Btw premeditation only gives you a 1 card advantage for the price of 5 hp. Without premed in deck, you would have drawn 1 other card. You have to consider that. Nevertheless Im a fan of this card, especially when you reach 50+ hp. Im playing HB rush + 3 premed in equalizers and usually beat everyone with it, when I get at least 1 premed in 2 rounds. And in real I have even more advantage to others, as Im on the top of this server since the first day which gives me some advantage in power cards.

    Greets, r4zZ

  7. #7
    Violence's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by r4zZ View Post
    Seems you're playing other ways on your server. On Kings Mausoleum and the merged servers, this low card deck couldnt stand against the high ranked players. Especially not against swamp mages. But I guess it was only for post-season finals.

    Btw premeditation only gives you a 1 card advantage for the price of 5 hp. Without premed in deck, you would have drawn 1 other card. You have to consider that. Nevertheless Im a fan of this card, especially when you reach 50+ hp. Im playing HB rush + 3 premed in equalizers and usually beat everyone with it, when I get at least 1 premed in 2 rounds. And in real I have even more advantage to others, as Im on the top of this server since the first day which gives me some advantage in power cards.

    Greets, r4zZ
    Exactly having premed with 50+ HP you don't have to worry to much about it plus if you have a big ass arsenal waiting to be played its pretty much game over, but considering I only have 41 HP and not those legendary power cards its very risky but still the deck is very interesting im not even considering having x2 premed that would be insane at my stage but perhaps later on its worth a shot.
    Shyriu - Windycliff

  8. #8
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    I thought I made it very clear that premed and Sylvi ranger are great cards under the premise of "going first" (Ie being the player who goes 1st in a match)

    And as such, in best of 3. (Post-season tournament) You are very likely to "go 1st" 2/3 games and thus have the advantage

    There is no counter when they can't drop a creature. 3 Sylvi rangers. 3 deadly blow. Nothing stays on the field long enough to stop the wolves
    I should add that I used +5 life rune during the tournament for added effect.


    No, no sniper/lucius. Another meta choice at the time based on this happening shortly after the LAST Ancient Den (boss, not server) event and everyone was still using 3dmg runes

    As for ancient Chimera?
    Everyone in the top 32 of 2v2 pre-season got a copy. They aren't exactly rare now :3
    But anyways, a 3/10 flier that deals damage on 4 squares screams efficient stats - CD ratio

    Can't block it's attack to your hero within 3 squares. It really was good for pushing through the last 6-12 life at the end of a game or just clear a crowded lane.
    (Much like how priests use sanctuary to do the same)

    *edit*
    Thought I should address the +1 thing on premed.
    It IS only a +1 when you think purely on "how many cards are in hand after you play premeditation". Yes, THEN it is a +1.
    But what is actually happening is you are "seeing" 2 MORE cards than your opponent sees.

    Opponent draws 3 to start, ends turn with 4 cards seen that match.
    You start premed and 1. End turn and have 3. On your next turn you play premed to "see" 2 MORE cards. You have seen 5 cards. End of turn you draw 1 and have "seen" 6.

    After 2 turns. YOU have seen 6 different cards while your opponent has seen only 4 cards.
    That is; If you are "playing first" in the match

    If you are "playing 2nd" you actually "see" 3 more cards after 2nd turn than your opponent has making it even stronger. But you sacrifice tempo and it isn't quite as strong; which I DID in fact address in my first response ^^

    It's not about how MANY cards are in your hand AFTER you play premeditation which determines it's value. It is how many cards you see in the match.

    AND since the only way to "see" more cards in this game is by playing Premeditation (Or Unicorns. Who plays those in top tier competitions anyways? But, I digress)

    Since the amount of total cards in your hand DOES NOT matter in this game for any card effect out yet to date, at least on the ENGLISH updated servers , being a +1 to hand size is irrelevant.

    It IS still having access to 2-3 MORE cards in a given time than your opponent for each instance you play a premeditation. Don't be fooled by "Well, it's only a +1"
    Last edited by HalfbloodQueen; 12-27-2013 at 06:24 PM.
    Nyxx - Ancient Den

    Queen of the Feles =^.^= *meow*

  9. #9
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    BTW. r4zZ-san must be on Desert foretress server then, no??

    Since I haven't seen you on Ancient Den. I have been THERE since day 1

    Either that or your forum name isn't the same as your game name, just like mine

    Or perhaps...... you have been playing the old servers since the START start. Wow. I just.....

    HI :3

    Yeah I double-post AND was irrelevant to the topic at hand. Terrible terrible

    The meta here is Either 15 card wolves (Most done poorly, or with Sanctuary)
    19-23 "control/rush counter"
    30 card mess

    With some variations of those in between
    Last edited by HalfbloodQueen; 12-27-2013 at 06:27 PM.
    Nyxx - Ancient Den

    Queen of the Feles =^.^= *meow*

  10. #10
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Violence View Post
    Oh Ancient Chimera?

    Spellfire Chimera. Oopsies. Typo

    THAT probably makes a lot more sense ^^
    Nyxx - Ancient Den

    Queen of the Feles =^.^= *meow*

  11. #11
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Noone of you here seem to understand concept of rush.

    Premed is a crap card. Although, not sure if you knew, it can "crit" and draw 4 cards at once, but pretty rare. Anyways, 5 life, takes one place so only 1 extra card, plus it adds 2 more turns to the initial card, so if that extra card is 2cd or less, you got absolutely nothing, and lost 5 life. Skip it. Also, I read some decks here, Sylvi Ranger, etc. Sylvi is anti-rushing card, not rushing. In rush, you don't need to counter anything, you need to have every card in use of attack, and only skills to remove obstacles and clean the path for your rush. You need true shot to kill enemy sylvi, 1cd, you don't need sylvi. You need some rushing creatures instead. Also, frenzy only 2v2, 1v1 in 85% of cases you will kill only a single creature, better get another db, does the same but increases limits of what can kill. I personally use 2x true shot, 2xdb, that's all. Life is important, especially against spikerushers. If you lose too much life by yourself, one buffed mif crit can kill you.

    Free advice:
    "2x Premeditation
    3x Deadly blow
    2x True shot
    3x Sylvi Ranger
    3x Werewolf Howler
    1x Fenris the Butcher
    1x Mifzuna the wind
    1x Alice, king's emissary
    1x Ancient Chimera"

    Remove premeds, sylvis, chimera. Add lucius, one more mif, one more alice, maia, libra, darius, etc. in perspective, till then cent rider/peg rider or so. I'd cut one db off. 2 in 15 card deck are all you need. They remove tanks, 2x true shot to remove maia-zuna-sylvi. Everything else rushing creatures. 3+ attack at least, with movement or range for instant damage.

  12. #12
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    I know very well what a "rush" is.
    The goal of rush is to fill up the opponent's summoning slots as fast as possible thus making them unable to lay down any creatures
    The actual atk power of the cards in question is irrelevant, so long as you fill up all 6 slots asap

    WOLVES aren't technically "rush" by that description. Wolves are just following a theme of using the best stat to cooldown ratio possible.
    It's just good-stuff.
    Folks just call it "rush" because it equates to "fast" both in cooldown AND in movement speed.
    But typical "rush" creatures are both faster to cooldown and faster movement than wolves.

    The two things are entirely different

    ALSO:

    I didn't post that the above was a rush deck. NOR that it was advice on how to build a rush deck. It was advice on a deck that makes good use of premeditation that was proven by taking a post season 1v1 championship. A list that could be viewed and given thought about in an intelligent manner and to be used as inspiration. Not copied card-for-card.
    Credibility on the potential of premeditation being useful in a competitive environment
    So good job on your reading skills ^^'

    Premed shows you 2 new cards, even if it's a +1 to total cards in hand.
    It still gives access to 2 more cards in a game than your opponent
    Last edited by HalfbloodQueen; 12-28-2013 at 12:36 AM.
    Nyxx - Ancient Den

    Queen of the Feles =^.^= *meow*

  13. #13
    Violence's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfbloodQueen View Post
    Spellfire Chimera. Oopsies. Typo

    THAT probably makes a lot more sense ^^
    Oh THAT actually makes alot more sense i was like what the? Yes that's definitly a decent card to mow down a lane thanks for the advice ^.^

    @kele I appreciate your input and noted it but considering the fact that i am not rich ingame or in real life i cannot afford sagi(I do think this card is incredibly OP), but i agree with you at one point slapping Darius there early on if not stopped its almost a free win, Frenzy is mostly used for those Cavalary with heroic 2 Id rather use frenzy on it then an true shot or DB since i tend to save DB's to wolfs Darius or pumped up Mizfunas.

    Also i think the objective of having Sylvis is to actually clear the field leaving open lanes or crippled units for your rush to chew upon, and i didn't know Premed could crit dropping a 4 card instead of 2 that's definitly interesting but what's the common factor to rise the rate of Premed critical? Hero crit, Unit crit?

    Thanks in advance.
    Shyriu - Windycliff

  14. #14
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Skills are affected by Hero Crit
    I have heard about Hero Crit raising mastery % but drawing 4 with premeditation? That is news to me ^^
    Nyxx - Ancient Den

    Queen of the Feles =^.^= *meow*

  15. #15
    Violence's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfbloodQueen View Post
    Skills are affected by Hero Crit
    I have heard about Hero Crit raising mastery % but drawing 4 with premeditation? That is news to me ^^
    I see thanks for the insight, guess we'll have to start using Premed to test it out and see if it actually happens ^.^.
    Shyriu - Windycliff

  16. #16
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Im from King's Mausoleum and I have the same nick ingame.

    Technically you're right @HalfbloodQueen, but you only get advantage by the one card you see more. The other card is like: +2 CD AND -5 life to see it. And whoever says "Well its only +1" dont plays on a high lvl. Those high ranked fights are won in critical moment by exactly 1 card.

    @kele I can only say, that you didn't get any deeper insight on the game mechanics apparently. Premedatition is NOT a crap card as long as you know how to build your deck around it and when to use it.
    There are those people who play this game by looking on the field and see their cards winning or losing. Only thing that matters for them is life and stats.
    And there are people like me playing cards not to kill creatures on the field, but to get a card advantage (have more cards than the other. That means on field AND hand). After a certain point, this game will reach a balance between top players, where the card advantage will decide who wins. Check post-season finals on the oldest servers here, if you dont understand what I mean.
    Except for rush which main aim is not to get a card advantage but to reduce life of the foe to 0 at all cost, each game will be won by the one who got the most card advantage.

    My decks are purely based on that principle. And it seems that I know what Im doing:
    80% winning rate after 374 fights 2v2
    75% winning rate after 491 fights 1v1

    Cheers, r4zZ
    Last edited by r4zZ; 12-28-2013 at 04:45 AM.
    Rise of Mythos
    Server: King's Mausoleum
    Nick: r4zZ

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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    i play as warrior and ranger rush, for me warrior is more about pressure since each creature is a threat cause of encourages, but ranger "need" more spells in deck so its not about pressure but about burst dmg, so u need nukes to clear the way, creatures and swift raids on the same turn to be effective, since u need that much cards on the same turn premed will give u that and make u win lots of games...but it depends on your play style, i dont defend anything i just atk, so i dont like the idea of loosing tons of hp to myself, so using premed is up to u^^

  18. #18
    Violence's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Majeral View Post
    i play as warrior and ranger rush, for me warrior is more about pressure since each creature is a threat cause of encourages, but ranger "need" more spells in deck so its not about pressure but about burst dmg, so u need nukes to clear the way, creatures and swift raids on the same turn to be effective, since u need that much cards on the same turn premed will give u that and make u win lots of games...but it depends on your play style, i dont defend anything i just atk, so i dont like the idea of loosing tons of hp to myself, so using premed is up to u^^
    Warriors are EXTREMELY overpowered (wait for Mizfuna Encourage or whatever skill they use to beef her up 1 shot crit you're basicly dead and if not they just do it again GG.), today i have attempted a deck similiar to the one HalfBloodQueen suggested adding in Hrafn and buffing the Sylvi's, well its definitly a double edged blade because i can dish out ALOT of cards in a small amount of time using x2 Premed + Wolfs and DB i can clear the field sure but there is always 1 lane open leaving me vulnerable to Mizfuna's/Alice near end game, its quite amuzing to play so recklessly but extremely frustrating vs 1500+ rating players with beefy legendary's, Ive managed to beat a few with this very same deck but alas total luck because Premed was out the first turn.

    My conclusion on the Premeditation is that it's a skill overall very good if like r4zz mentioned you build you're deck around it Premed knowning you'le get a card out 1-2 turns next, i don't recommend it though for a 25 deck since its VERY rare to get it out the first turn.

    The deck i was using is has follows:

    Howlers x3
    Fenris x1
    Sylvi Ranger x2
    Darius x1
    Mizfuna x1
    Deadly Blow x2
    True shot x2
    Premeditation x2
    Chief Hrafn x1
    Lucius Swift x1
    ARK Sniper x1

    Note that none are legendary only epic and rare howlers :P, any suggestions to tweak/enhace the deck favouring the Premeditation skill?
    I have to admit its very exciting seeing that you drawed Premed at the first turn saving you the time to think about using it later on, also when it returns to your hand it's just epic haha.

    Thank you for all the replies and inputs on this subject cheers!
    Shyriu - Windycliff

  19. #19
    HalfbloodQueen's Avatar Senior Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    Hey. I won Postseason using GREEN howlers in that deck because that is what I had at the time.
    So...... >_>

    Anywho. Mifzuna/Alice giving a problem endgame? Wanna know my secret deck tech for that?

    Sylvi huntress
    The retreat mechanic on her actually nullifies Mifzunas windwalk and preventa alice' Beginner's luck cheese.
    Plus with a decent rep score she hits for 4 quite often ^^
    She also wins against opposing Lucius/Centaur marksman/Elven Longbow archer

    I would take out ARK sniper for that
    Based on lower crit/block chance because she is an outsider.
    And based on that she cant protect herself in square 4 when attacking heros

    Sylvi Huntress protects herself and trades/wins against most of the hp 5 or less creatures by herself
    Plus she's cute :3
    Last edited by HalfbloodQueen; 12-28-2013 at 04:26 PM.
    Nyxx - Ancient Den

    Queen of the Feles =^.^= *meow*

  20. #20
    r4zZ's Avatar Member
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    Re: Premeditation and Rush.

    I like her pretty much too. (low cd, second round damage hero, not much damage/hp = foe doesnt see any threat or reason to kill with a spell, defense skill prevents her from dying directly against first summoned creatures. These combined give you a huge advantage by 1 card) Was surprised that nearly noone is using her and that shes so cheap at AH.
    This was a half year ago.
    And now? Still nearly noone in top playing her. She's definitely one of my favourite underestimated cards.
    Rise of Mythos
    Server: King's Mausoleum
    Nick: r4zZ

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